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Wordpress Themes - WP Forum at BFA » WordPress Themes » Atahualpa 3 Wordpress theme » eCommerce & Atahualpa »

Problems with WP e-Commerce plugin


  #1  
Old Feb 17, 2009, 05:05 AM
chelling
 
2 posts · Feb 2009
I'm setting up a site with the Atahualpa 3 theme and the WP e-Commerce plugin. My problem is that I'm directed bact to the sites index page when clicking on pages inside the WP e-Commerce like "Visit the shop" and "Check Out". Is it a problem combining Atahualpa and WP e-Commerce, or am I just plain stupid?
Kind regards from Norway..
  #2  
Old Feb 17, 2009, 07:16 AM
Flynn's Avatar
Flynn
 
3,768 posts · Oct 2008
Munich, Germany
Please post a URL, I'd have to see the error in action
  #3  
Old Feb 21, 2009, 02:13 PM
Shepherd Jim's Avatar
Shepherd Jim
 
301 posts · Feb 2009
Bristol, midcoast Maine USA
I'm hoping to "link up"/integrate some sort of e-commerce/shopping cart with the site I'm setting up in Atahualpa. The WP-ecommerce plugin was going to be my first experiment -- have already installed the latest beta/RC version, just not activated it yet.

Is there a KNOWN, best way to handle e-commerce through Atahualpa? We need/want to have something a bit more extensive than a simple "Pay Using PayPal" button. We already have an old-fashioned merchant account through our local bank with Transfirst, but the people at the bank aren't much help when it comes to online business. I had taken a long look at Zen Cart, but it wanted to be the ENTIRE website: homepage, product gallery, shopping cart, etc. It was pretty inflexible and VERY clunky/UGLY!

If YOU (meaning anyone other the Flynn) have a recommendation ...or horror story ...please jump in. Though, Flynn, that is NOT to say that I do not want to also hear your thoughts.

Hope everyone's having a good weekend. It's NOT snowing here today! The sun's even out!
TTFN -- S/Jim

Last edited by Shepherd Jim; Feb 22, 2009 at 08:49 AM. Reason: I had edited this post in error -- removed the edit :-(
  #4  
Old Feb 21, 2009, 11:28 PM
Flynn's Avatar
Flynn
 
3,768 posts · Oct 2008
Munich, Germany
I have not done much with ecommerce software yet, but I guess your choices are

Integrate a E-commerce plugin into Wordpress

or

Run E-commerce application side by side with Wordpress, match their design and the only connection between them would be that each one has a link to the other one in the menu bar

If there's a chance that you want to expand your e-commerce activities sometime later, it'd probably be better to start with a real e-commerce software. Do Wordpress and the shop need to communicate a lot with each other? If not, I'd go the WP + real Ecommerce software route.

For instance, I chose Vbulletin as a forum software (and I have not even matched the design to wordpress.bytesforall.com) because I wanted the best forum software considering the amount of time I was going to spend on it. I also wanted to be able to expand the software if I ever wanted to. I am using just a subset of the Vbulletin features right now but if I ever wanted to build this up to something much bigger I could.

Zencart, Creloaded, XTCommerce, OScommerce are all the same breed I think and based on OSCommerce. The "in" shop nowadays is magento, however that one appears to be pretty complicated, too, so an even "hotter" tip would probably be Prestashop. It's supposed to be powerful, modern and easy at the same time. It's supposed to be relatively easy to theme, too.

I am thinking about developing E-commerce themes and if I do I'll probably look into Prestashop, if they keep growing and keep their momentum. Magento is still much bigger I think, both are open source, OSL, not GPL.
  #5  
Old Feb 22, 2009, 12:20 AM
Shepherd Jim's Avatar
Shepherd Jim
 
301 posts · Feb 2009
Bristol, midcoast Maine USA
Flynn! The extent of your knowledge continues to amaze me!

I thought I'd mention that a very much related thread "Help starting a store in Atahualpa..." is happening at http://forum.bytesforall.com/showthread.php?t=489

...so! there's another WP e-commerce solution! I better get busy and do some trialling (no matter how I spell that word it never looks right! )

Flynn, I'm wondering if maybe you should take these two threads and stick them into a new, separate "E-commerce" subdirectory.

Okay! I'm off to bed -- been sleeping in my easy chair for an hour or two already.

EDIT/ADD -- P.S. -- I just visited the PrestaShop website. It looks warm and friendly, VERY ACTIVE user base -- would be fun to be a part of that community. I could NOT get their demo, either front or back end, to run in English.

Last edited by Shepherd Jim; Feb 22, 2009 at 08:50 AM. Reason: I wanted to add the P.S. re PrestaShop website
  #6  
Old Nov 10, 2009, 09:03 AM
Shepherd Jim's Avatar
Shepherd Jim
 
301 posts · Feb 2009
Bristol, midcoast Maine USA
November 2009 UpDate:

I saw this old thread in passing and thought I could offer an updated progress report.

I wound up "buying" the Shopp plugin (vs. the WP-ecommerce). My decision was mostly based on the level of support I could see in evidence on the plugins' respective forums. While WP e-commerce was "free" they did not seem to have enough people on staff interested in helping users.

Selling things online is definitely the way to go -- interactive and fun -- you can have casual, up close and personal relationships with your customers.

BUT, when it comes time for money to change hands you cannot afford to be casual. There are laws, your livelihood, the trust of financial institutions AND the trust (AND funds!!) of your customers all very much at stake. If your site collapses in the middle of processing someone's Mastercard you're done for. There's already a large group of people who won't consider using their credit cards on the web. When a person at your website types in their ccard account number, clicks submit and gets a "404 error", you're done. They'll want to know exactly what YOU did with their sensitive info.

...and if you go to your ecommerce software's support forum and ask for help, and there's no response for WEEKS, what use is that? At that point your state's attorney general probably has a task force investigating your tax returns for the past 10 years!

So far so good with Shopp. There's a small "jquery conflict" (double library calls) with Atahualpa that seems like it might slow things down a little. It's easily fixed/avoided by removing a line of code so there's only one jquery library being brought it. (note: I don't really understand what I just said -- am just parroting what I've seen smart people like Shopp Forum admins, Flynn and Juggledad say in posts)

I'll try to remember to come back here periodically with fresh news.
Jim
PS -- I can't see why there appears to so little interest in the "Atahualpa and e-commerce" subject. Am I like the only person who finds this complex and a little bit scary? I tried to interest Flynn in setting up an e-commerce thread here in the Forum, but he pointed out, correctly, that not many people seemed to want to talk about it.
  #7  
Old Nov 12, 2009, 03:43 AM
Liston's Avatar
Liston
 
26 posts · Oct 2009
Scotland
I am very interested in this!!!!

I may be going down the road of just using an ecommerce solution side by side with the main site. I really wanted to have something integrated with Ata, but with the lack of support for some of the plugins, and me not being savvy with the behind the scenes working of all this stuff, I am having to reconsider my options. My stock is on the boat, and I need to get my finger out and sort out my ecommerce solution (and site for that matter).

http://www.ukbarbell.com was also wanting to try and integrate forums into the site (done it before)... fingers crossed for themeframe. Site is a bit of a mess with the design and colour. Iddeally there would be recent forum posts showing at the side of the shop, and random items showing at the sides of the forum.

John

Last edited by Liston; Nov 12, 2009 at 03:54 AM.
  #8  
Old Nov 14, 2009, 08:34 AM
Shepherd Jim's Avatar
Shepherd Jim
 
301 posts · Feb 2009
Bristol, midcoast Maine USA
Hey John / Liston:

PLEASE keep us updated on what you're doing re the "e-commerce" thing.

I too might wind up basically running the e-commerce more as a parallel sight than integrated with the main Atahualpa installation. Besides the usual potential integration problems we usually have troubles because the two "divisions" of our business are very different in their e-commerce requirements:

I make little wooden thingies, each is different and so when offered for sale and sold ...it is GONE. For those products I need some sort of "gallery" display where product photos and descriptions can be quickly uploaded and updated.

Meanwhile, the fiber and yarn my wife's end of the business sells, is sold by the ounce and pound and there's usually an inventory quantity that sales can be "drawn against", with the amount "in stock" being reduced by the amount sold after each sale. Each of Pam's 'products' might actually wind up having its own entire page on the site.

I guess I might wind up running two e-commerce sites alongside the main WP/ATA site.

Again. PLEASE come back here and let us know how it's going. I have to think that there are TONS of lurkers reading these posts. These days it's the rare website that doesn't have SOME interest in e-commerce.

Here's a recent blogpost I just ran across http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/a...for-ecommerce/ -- I get the feeling that the guy blogging isn't really much of an e-commerce expert but he is providing some info I hadn't run across previously.

Jim

Last edited by Shepherd Jim; Nov 14, 2009 at 08:37 AM. Reason: added recent blog link / URL
  #9  
Old Nov 14, 2009, 11:04 AM
Liston's Avatar
Liston
 
26 posts · Oct 2009
Scotland
Hello Jim and all the lurkers,

I spent the previous few days going through all the ecommerce solutions with intergration for wordpress. Ecwid seems to have some potential, and works well as a very basic ecommerce solution, and looks pretty. However it doesn't work properly with Ata, giving some display issues. It displays fine in default templates.

There are a number of paid solutions, but I am always dubious about sticking my hand in my pockets (being a frugle Scot). Shopp seems to be okay and might be an option.

Being in the UK I would like something that has some more relavence for the market, as a lot of these solutions are designed for the US and Canadian markets. Everything I find is costing 20 a month ($35ish). This makes Shopp look cheap.

I am just about to give WP-Ecommerce a try just now. I need to save money at this stage, finances are a bit stretched. As well as this site being site up, and importanting stock from China and the US, I am opening a gym (with its own site to follow) and working a full time teaching job. We are getting there, getting a workable ecommerce solution is a big step forward.

Been looking through your site. Have you looked at prestashop? I am going to play around with that tomorrow. Introducing the ability to have multiple shops linked, might that solve the problem? Definately interesting.

As Flynn said. He go for the best forums if that is what is important. Is the selling side of your business important? If the answer is yes you would probably be better dropping the integration for a powerful shop. Just a thought. I still have no idea what I am doing...

John
  #10  
Old Nov 15, 2009, 08:45 AM
Shepherd Jim's Avatar
Shepherd Jim
 
301 posts · Feb 2009
Bristol, midcoast Maine USA
Hey John / Liston:

Thanks for the update. I had purchased the "WP E-Commerce Bible" (published by an Instinct employee -- then US$37.00, now $35.00) which I would consider an absolute necessity to untangle the complexity. ((Warning: they've been promising an update "Bible" since earlier this year -- I'd have to say I don't think the current book is far enough "behind" the plugin so's to be a problem. But, the Bible obviously will have to keep up))

I'm "at" the Prestashop w/site as I type. Dumb luck: the first sample site I clicked on happened to be one where the home page is the "front" of the Prestashop installtion and the "blog" menu choice links to pages and posts in WordPress.

I'm going to try to dig down into the Prestashop "documentation" to try to learn if Prestahop might have a direct/immediate link to the people who handle our existing merchant account -- the one we've had through our local "brick and mortar" bank for years. It seems that hooking a shopping cart right up to our Transfirst credit card processing would be "simple."

BUT, it seems like the inter-relationships in the whole online handling of funds might be too complicated for any one cog to understand the whole picture. If I ask Transfirst how to set up an e-commerce site "linking" to them they refer me to a handful of "shopping carts" like OS-commerce. Then, outfits like Shopp and Prestashop will say they're compatible with OS-commerce. Okay? What do I have to set up to put my pages into that chain of relationships -- how do sales (funds?) weave their way from the website cart through to my bank account?

PayPal is such an online force there's ALWAYS a direct link from a plugin to them. EVERYONE, ALL plugins and e-commerce site designers, KNOW PayPal and offer the immediate ability to process sales into your PayPal account.

Which, again, is why I'll probably wind up expanding our PayPal account to receive sales coming in from the website. I'll keep our merchant account, the idea being that we'd use it to process sales at fib er festivals and "on farm sales" (yep, come visit us here in Maine and you can buy "Lamb" sausage and fresh, free-range eggs!)

I gather you're in/close to Edinburgh -- the ONE place in Scotland we didn't visit back in the 70's. I went to college in London '73-'76 and we "vacationed" in Scotland both summers -- spending all our time in the west (include Skye), north and center. GOOD LUCK with the gym!

Jim
  #11  
Old Dec 5, 2009, 06:38 AM
marineceo
 
18 posts · Oct 2009
Hello all,

I too have been searching for a good cart integration plugin for ATA.

I have tried a simple one, "WP Simple Paypal Shopping cart" but it did not work well, was buggy, and most of all the author ignored my questions concerning problems. He seemed to answer everyone else on his forum. Maybe he knew ATA was an issue for him and chose not to address it.

I am just setting up a site (wp/ATA) www.goddessfx.com which I use to have set up with zen cart.

It never made many sales probably because the zen cart site was ugly and wow, what a pain to use.

I will watch with hope that someone figures it out as I really do love the ATA theme plus even though I have not donated yet, Flynn, Juggledad, and others are so helpful and knowledgeable.

A section on ecommerce is a good idea. Just my 2 cents, pun intended.

Thanks
Chuck
  #12  
Old Dec 7, 2009, 09:17 AM
Shepherd Jim's Avatar
Shepherd Jim
 
301 posts · Feb 2009
Bristol, midcoast Maine USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by marineceo
Hello all,

...<snip>...

which I use to have set up with zen cart.
...<snip>...
Hey Chuck!

I gave ZenCart a good look ... STEEP learning curve!

What "payment gateway" were you using? Not sure if that says what I mean! WHERE was the $money going after ZenCart collected it?

Can you tell us about the PayPal WP widget you appear to be using now?
PayPal makes it SO EASY that it's difficult to justify all the pain of using something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marineceo
A section on ecommerce is a good idea. Just my 2 cents, pun intended.
...<snip>...
From your keyboard to Flynn's ears! ...actually we might be able to bribe Juggledad to set up a permanent thread ...anyone have a set of dulcimer strings they'd like to donate to the cause?

Jim
  #13  
Old Dec 7, 2009, 09:32 AM
marineceo
 
18 posts · Oct 2009
Jim,

Paypal has an upgrade cart available called "paypal pro" or maybe it was "merchant pro". Either way it is easy to find but not so easy to intergrate with zen cart. It offers a complete shopping cart solution but you would still be restricted to your zen cart layout.

I thought the plugin/widget simple paypal shopping cart would would great but as I said, the author has ignored requests for set up and support issues. That is located at http://www.tipsandtricks-hq.com/word...art-plugin-768

The paypal pro costs $30 US a month plus the percentage.

All I really need is something that works with Atahualpa and is simple.

I saw that Yahoo has a shopping cart too but charges a monthly fee for it.

Chuck
  #14  
Old Dec 7, 2009, 10:33 AM
newbonic
 
20 posts · Dec 2009
Yorkshire, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepherd Jim
November 2009 UpDate:

PS -- I can't see why there appears to so little interest in the "Atahualpa and e-commerce" subject. Am I like the only person who finds this complex and a little bit scary? I tried to interest Flynn in setting up an e-commerce thread here in the Forum, but he pointed out, correctly, that not many people seemed to want to talk about it.
Hi Jim, I'm interested in the e-commerce plugin as well. I'm just starting to get to grips with WP and themes, and have had a go at implementing Atahualpa and wp e-commerce plugin Version 3.7.5.1. But I to was a bit fazed by the number of significant problems posted in their forums tagged 'Not resolved', some going back years!

I'm really torn between pushing ahead with wp e-commerce plugin (which I like, but which looks very flakey) or trying the other one mentioned (Shopp). A few $ spent now could save many later if it helps me to not back the wrong horse!

Any other lurkers got a view?

Last edited by newbonic; Dec 7, 2009 at 10:47 AM.
  #15  
Old Dec 7, 2009, 03:07 PM
Shepherd Jim's Avatar
Shepherd Jim
 
301 posts · Feb 2009
Bristol, midcoast Maine USA
Hey Chuck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by marineceo
...<snip>...Paypal has an upgrade cart available called "paypal pro"

...<snip>...

I thought the plugin/widget simple paypal shopping cart would would great but as I said, the author has ignored requests for set up and support issues. ...<snip>...

All I really need is something that works with Atahualpa and is simple.
...<snip>...
I'm trying the "Shopp" plugin which does cost /per installation (US$55.00 I think) which I plan to "connect" to what PayPal is now calling "Website Payments Standard" (a notch below the "Pro" that you have. I don't really need the "Pro" in that we already have a regular old-fashioned merchant account through our brick & mortar bank up in town -- we'll just continue to use that when transacting business with customers face-to-face, either when they come to the farm credit card in hand or we have a booth at a festival.

For more info see my reply to Newbonic below as well as another thread http://forum.bytesforall.com/showthread.php?t=4517 on this same subject.

Jim
  #16  
Old Dec 7, 2009, 03:51 PM
Shepherd Jim's Avatar
Shepherd Jim
 
301 posts · Feb 2009
Bristol, midcoast Maine USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbonic
...<snip>... have had a go at implementing Atahualpa and wp e-commerce plugin Version 3.7.5.1. But I to was a bit fazed by the number of significant problems posted in their forums tagged 'Not resolved' ...<snip>...

I'm really torn between pushing ahead with wp e-commerce ...<snip>...or trying the other one mentioned (Shopp). A few $ spent now could save many later if it helps me to not back the wrong horse!
...<snip>...
Hey "newbonic"! ...note: you should also see my reply above to "Chuck/marineceo":

As I've said, the obvious lack of support at the wp-ecommerce plugin freaked me out. Collecting peoples' money is serious stuff. I'd rather spend $55 for Shopp and be guaranteed -- that may not be exactly the right word -- some support.

I'm trialling Shopp on my "test" site http://www.shepherdjim.com/. I've installed it there in "test mode" which does not require the site have an SSL certificate or associated payment gateway.

I had an operating "catalog" and "shopping cart" pretty quick, straight out of the box. Once I could see a few things that I figured needing changing I started digging to see HOW those changes could be implemented. During the testing I've accomplished GoDaddy SSL certification of our real website Hatchtown.com which is where we'll be conducting business for real.

I'm happy to report that the Shopp's "documentation" is more complete and better organized than what I remember at wp-ecommerce. It's set up as a "wiki" so is a work in progress.

I've had some of my questions answered in the "Forums" and others by the "Help Desk" (direct submission of questions to the support staff). I'm now getting to the point of going into the plugin's .php template pages to make "code" deletions/additions. I'll start playing with css next!

Please feel free to "shop" over at ShepherdJim.com. It's safe to put stuff in the cart and then "proceed to checkout". You can provide fake name, address, etc ...thought you might want to submit a real email address so you can see what the plugin sends out confirming your "purchase". You will have to provide something close to a real credit card number. Shopp does some "checking" to see if the account number is "real" -- I tried to use "1234123412341234" and it immediately told me it was "invalid".

Jim
PS - Yorkshre! Ay by gum, lahd! I did "photog college" in London and one of my best friends is from Keighley (sp?) -- my wife and I used to go up with him and stay the weekend with his folks.
  #17  
Old Dec 15, 2009, 10:15 AM
newbonic
 
20 posts · Dec 2009
Yorkshire, UK
Hello again Jim. I've decided that as I'm learning how to implement e-commerce websites I'll try both the paid for Gold wp e-commerce plugin, and shopp. It'll cost $95 but compared to some of the training courses I've paid for that's cheap! And hopefully I'll be able to pass on the cost of one of the licenses to my client.

Has Shopp been easy to implement?

Do you know if it's feasible to flip between the two on a single WP site and mysql database?

PS, yup I know Keighly, although I'm from the south of the county.
  #18  
Old Dec 15, 2009, 07:02 PM
Shepherd Jim's Avatar
Shepherd Jim
 
301 posts · Feb 2009
Bristol, midcoast Maine USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbonic
...<snip>... I'll try both the paid for Gold wp e-commerce plugin, and shopp. It'll cost $95 but compared to some of the training courses I've paid for that's cheap! And hopefully I'll be able to pass on the cost of one of the licenses to my client.

Has Shopp been easy to implement?

Do you know if it's feasible to flip between the two on a single WP site and mysql database? ...<snip>...
OUch! You are a glutton for punishment! But, your plan does make some sense, you being a pro developer and all. At best: you'll become comfortable with both plugins be able to offer clients a choice with advice re the pros and cons. Maybe the worst: you'll discover which of the two plugins works best.

Getting Shopp installed and running in "test mode" was very straight forward -- following the steps laid out in the documentation. I was also able to get some questions answered -- some direct questions put to the "Help Desk" and a few posed in the Forum. Like always, I do something, save the changes, make adjustments, save the changes. You begin to learn which changes effect what. Unfortunately, for the moment I've sort of had to "put aside" web design whiile I attend to prepping tax forms (ugh!)

I'm betting you would not want to have both plugins activated at the same time -- not even in a test situation.

PLEASE keep reporting back here. Your experience should prove invaluable to others -- especially now that "WE" have our own "eCommerce & Atahualpa" forum!

Jim
  #19  
Old Dec 16, 2009, 05:13 AM
newbonic
 
20 posts · Dec 2009
Yorkshire, UK
Will do. It's very much work in progress right now but when I've populated the shop and linked to payment gateways, customised the UI, etc. I'll post a link to it and mention any gotchas that I encounter.

Glad there's an e-commerce subsection - makes it easier to find stuff on e-commerce! Cheers.
  #20  
Old Dec 18, 2009, 07:11 AM
lucy
 
60 posts · Aug 2009
Grayson County, TX
I used CRE Loaded for about 1 1/2 years and it was not a good experience. I use Interspire Shopping Cart now (the hosted version is BigCommerce). It is not the least expensive out there and is still improving, but I really like it. If you have the skills to muck around in WordPress you have the skills to do basically anything you need yourself (which has actually saved me money vs. CRE Loaded).

I wish it was integrated with WP but they have their own content management system, so I can't see them doing that.

I have been doing e-commerce full time since 2004 and I am on cart #4. And I am constantly looking at other carts. Seems like there is no perfect solution out there!
  #21  
Old Dec 20, 2009, 03:48 PM
newbonic
 
20 posts · Dec 2009
Yorkshire, UK
FYI - Here's my site so far - shop isn't populated though, and no payment gateways have been added. Plus I'm still wrestling with WP e-commerce bugs and unexpected/non-obvious behaviour.

Anyway, the work so far is at: http://www.oakappledesigns.biz. Any comments or critique welcome.
  #22  
Old Mar 24, 2010, 06:38 PM
rickheck
 
139 posts · Oct 2009
I've set up one ecommerce site (LeAnns Designs, www.leanns-designs.com ) using WP, Atahualpa theme, plus WP eCommerce.

The site turned out well (IMHO); the client is happy.

I had some support difficulties with WP-eCommerce (they are sometimes not responsive), but was able to search around on their forums for help with the issues.

I am not sure if WP eCommerce is ready for large-volume sites, and it is not quite plug/play. But it is a good alternative.

I've been looking at OSCommerce (not the WP plug-in), and it is OK if you don't want to add pages other than products (it can be done, but a bit convulted).

Zen-Cart is another option -not a WP add-in, but seems to be more suited to higher volume commerce sites.

Hope this helps.....Rick (www.cellarweb.com )
  #23  
Old Apr 2, 2010, 05:54 AM
juggledad's Avatar
juggledad
 
23,576 posts · Mar 2009
OSX 10.11.5 WP 4.x Atahualpa(all) Safari, Firefox, Chrome
rickheck - 2 things
1) the link fo leanns-design gets a not found
2) on your site, you should put a border around the menus or color them. It's very hard to see the product child menus and if I'm looking for someone to build me a web site, and I go to your's and see that I'd think 'Hmmmm...'
__________________
"Tell me and I forget, teach me and I may remember, involve me and I learn." - Benjamin Franklin
Juggledad | Forum Moderator/Support
  #24  
Old Apr 2, 2010, 10:55 AM
rickheck
 
139 posts · Oct 2009
Thanks for the comments, JuggleDad...

1) Typo in my link in the previous message. The link (as you apparently discovered) should be www.leanns-design.com http://leanns-design.com.

2) As for the menu bar, the lack of a separator (and the color choices of ) between menu items on the menu bar was a design decision by the client. She was looking for a color theme of those shades. We tried a separator between menu items, and she didn't like that.

Many sites have similar non-deliniation between menu items. But, a design choice of the client is what we do.

THanks...Rick...
  #25  
Old Apr 2, 2010, 12:49 PM
juggledad's Avatar
juggledad
 
23,576 posts · Mar 2009
OSX 10.11.5 WP 4.x Atahualpa(all) Safari, Firefox, Chrome
rick,...I meant YOUR site - cellerweb
__________________
"Tell me and I forget, teach me and I may remember, involve me and I learn." - Benjamin Franklin
Juggledad | Forum Moderator/Support

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